Osho’s Exclusive Interview with Vishrant in 1985

Vishrant
I’ve got twelve questions to ask. The last one’s the most important one to me because it’s a bit personal. I’m taking advantage of the interview. But the first question: Bhagwan, I’ve heard you say that you are an ordinary man. In Australia, we have a lot of people who would consider themselves as ordinary people. What do you see as the difference between your ordinariness and their ordinariness?

Osho
There is great difference. The difference is all the ordinary people of the world, without exception, deep down believe they are extraordinary. They are not ordinary.

Vishrant
The thing that seems to come to mind to a lot of Australians I’ve spoken to who aren’t your disciples is that you have the Rolls Royces and you have the watches, which are lovely, and you still claim you’re ordinary. And they can’t seem to understand at all.

Osho
You just wait. You have not listened to my answer. I am saying that the ordinary man believes deep down in his heart that he is not ordinary. Just tell to anybody that, “You are ordinary,” and see the reaction.

I say I am ordinary because to be ordinary is the nature of things. And there is no desire to be extraordinary, no ambition to be extraordinary. In fact, because I am an ordinary man, I can enjoy diamond watches, I can enjoy Rolls Royces. No extraordinary man can do that.

For example, Mahatma Gandhi is an extraordinary man. He will move in a third-class compartment in the train because he has renounced all comforts. He cannot move in a first-class compartment; he cannot go into an air-conditioned compartment. He will move in a third-class compartment. And because of that, he will be respected as a great saint all over India.

But nobody looks at the reality. The reality is because Gandhi was moving in a third-class compartment, a compartment that is meant to carry sixty people is carrying one person.

If he was going into an air-conditioned class, in which I have been moving, it is only four times to the third-class fare. Now his fare is sixty times more. My fare is only four times more. But he is a great saint. Nobody can call me a saint. Saints don’t go into air-conditioned class. They don’t have ninety Rolls Royces, they don’t have limousines.

He will not drink even the milk of a cow because it is richer. Buffalos’ milk is, even more, richer in content. He will drink only a goat’s milk because that is the poorest milk in content. And he will be worshipped as a great saint.

But his goat in those days used to eat cashew nuts, grapes, oranges, apples – worth ten rupees. In those days, ten rupees was the salary of a schoolmaster for a whole month. And Gandhi’s goat will eat ten rupees worth food in one day. And this is saintly.

One of Gandhi’s most intimate disciples, Sarojini Naidu, is reported to have said that, “To keep Mahatma Gandhi poor, we have to waste fortunes.”

But I am an ordinary man, and I will enjoy everything that ordinary man is supposed to enjoy.

Vishrant
I accept that Bhagwan, I am asking you questions that I have to ask you. I don’t think I’ve met any other ordinary men quite like you. Bhagwan, you’re one of the most controversial men in the world. You’ve upset the masses in Australia. What’s your reason for doing this?

Osho
I love it.

Vishrant
It doesn’t make you that popular, though. People tend to run rather than come.

Osho
Nobody is asking them to come. Let them run – as far as they can go. But once a person starts running away from me, he is in my grip. The earth is round. Soon from the other side, he will be coming to me. Where he will go? How far he can run?

So, I have a simple principle. Either a person has to love me, or he has to hate me. I don’t allow any other alternative, because love and hate both are deep relationships. Love can change into hate; hate can change into love. It is very simple.

So, I create controversies. Those controversies create divisions in people: people who are for me, people who are against me. But they both are unaware of one fact: that I have become the focus of their attention of them both.

Vishrant
Bhagwan, they’re not unaware of that. As a matter of fact, a lot of people say that you do the publicity like the Rolling Stones used to do it, and they say any publicity is good publicity. And they believe it’s a publicity stunt for you to get them in.

Osho
That’s perfectly right. Publicity is perfectly right. The sun rising early in the morning does publicity all over the world. Stars in the night do publicity. Moon and the full moon, they do publicity. Flowers spreading their fragrance into the wind, what they are doing? Publicity! I am also doing publicity.

Vishrant
Your publicity is more a verbal publicity. It’s not something that comes up like the sun.

Osho
It cannot come like the sun not because of any incapacity on my side. It is because the sun cannot speak, cannot give an interview to the news media. Otherwise, the sun will do. He cannot speak; poor fellow is just mute. What can I do about it?

I am not mute. I will speak. Those who can understand my presence, they will understand my presence. Those who can understand my voice will understand my voice. Those who cannot understand anything at least will understand hate, hostility, towards me. But I am not going to leave a single word around the world, a single man who can ignore me.

Vishrant
No, it seems not. As a matter of fact, I’m heading this story ‘Bhagwan Shree Rajneesh: Madman or Saviour?‘ Which do you think you are?

Osho
That’s good. It is groovy.

Vishrant
Are you a madman or a saviour, Bhagwan?

Osho
I am a madman.

Vishrant
I had a feeling you’d say that. Now I’ve got to get on to some serious stuff. When Sheela was in Australia, she said many rude things to Australians on and off the air. In fact, she called the Manjimup and Pemberton people in West Australia prune faces and idiots. Was she acting for you or was she acting for herself?

Osho
I don’t know what she did there. I have no idea. She was continuously using my name in everything because sannyasins won’t listen to her. They are in love with me. So, she was exploiting my name in every possible way and telling everybody that this is my message, this is what I have said. And I don’t even know what she was doing there, what business was hers there to be.

In fact, since I started speaking, she started finding any excuse to run away from here, for the simple reason because she became more and more afraid that now I am speaking, two things are happening. One thing, her image from the television disappeared, her voice from the radio disappeared, her pictures and statements in the newspapers disappeared. That was bursting her balloon of the ego. In three and a half years she has become a big ego, a celebrity. So, this was one of the reasons she was running to Europe, to Australia, to Japan, to Singapore, to India because there she had still the same image. I was not there, so she was my representative, my mediator, to the sannyasins.

Secondly, she started feeling that sooner or later her crimes, which were confined only within a group of twenty people. Naturally, every criminal keeps the group as small as possible, otherwise, it is dangerous. More people, more possibility of things getting into public. So, only twenty major people in the commune she has placed on top positions knew about her crimes. But she was becoming alert because the crimes that were committed, few were such that my physician was thrice poisoned, my caretaker one time poisoned.

Now, these people started bringing all kinds of news to me, that houses are bugged, that phones are tapped. Even my room was bugged. I asked Sheela that, “Is my room bugged?” And she flatly denied, “No. Why we should bug Your room? And if it is bugged, then we should have a check-up.”

I said, “If it is not you, then who can bug it? There is no need to check.”

Vishrant
Why would you suspect Sheela would bug your room, Bhagwan?

Osho
Just so that whatever anybody tells me, she knows. And then I figured it out, that it is bugged because I talked with Devaraj something and next day she brought the subject. I talked something to Vivek, and exact words next day she brought it up. She will bring it up in such a way that, “Last night I dreamt that you are sitting in the chair and Vivek is sitting in front and Devaraj is sitting in front and something you are talking, and they are talking, and they are talking that somebody is poisoned. I can’t exactly remember, but it was something about poisoning people. And,” she said, “not only I dreamt it, Savita dreamt it, Vidya dreamt it.” Exact same dream!

So that was enough proof, that I was searching, that there is bugging or not. There was bugging because she was repeating exactly. She became aware that sooner or later she will be caught.

Vishrant
Do you think this could happen again?

Osho
There is no possibility.

Vishrant
Well, do you think that Hasya, your new secretary, is capable of mistrust as Sheela was?

Osho
No.

Vishrant
Good. Bhagwan, in July I heard you say, “Tell them to get ready. I’m coming.” That was referring to coming to Australia. Are you still coming?

Osho
Just I have to see with this green card thing.

Vishrant
So if you get a green card, you’ll come out and see us?

Osho
Unless green card is in my hand, I cannot move out of America.

Vishrant
They wouldn’t let you back in?

Osho
They will not let me back in.

Vishrant
When do you think that you’ll put that plan into action of getting the sannyasins to start picketing the American consulates with regard your green card?

Osho
No, not about my green card. That I am not worried, but if they do any harm to the commune. They are keeping their army alert, they are keeping their National Guard alert, to attack Rajneeshpuram. If this happens, then I am going to tell my sannyasins. I am also keeping them alert.

They have already got this message, that they have to be alert. Any moment any nuisance American government does, then you have to demonstrate, meditate, dance, do Dynamic Meditation before every American embassy.

Vishrant
That’d be something to see, Bhagwan.

Osho
It will be worth seeing because nobody has ever done meditation as a protest.

Vishrant
In Australia, we have two communes: one in Sydney and one in Perth, West Australia. Is it possible that now that Sheela and the gang have gone that we could have more communes in more of the towns?

Osho
Yes, certainly you can have. Those people had this idea of keeping as small number of communes as possible. That is stupid. The idea was to control because when you have many communes control becomes impossible. I don’t want to control. There is no need.

I had given thousands names for centres around the world, and in these three and half year, they destroyed those centres, forced the centres to close, told the people to move to one commune. Few moved, few have not moved. And they are not happy because they were having their own place. Even if there was just twelve people, but they were happy and doing their work. So, there is no question.

Now again every centre can start working. New communes should start. Every city should have a commune. If commune is too big, you can have an ashram, which will be a smaller place. If ashram is also too big, then you can have just a centre where two, three sannyasins will be living. But other sannyasins can come, meet, discuss, dance, sing, meditate.

But spread it wide. I want it to be completely decentralized. Their effort was centralizing, everything keeping in their hands. That is absolutely fascist idea. I would like every place to have my commune, my people. And now that I have freed my people from red clothes, mala, you will be able to have many more people available to become sannyasins. Now there is no barrier for them.

These small things were unnecessary barriers. Red clothes, their job becomes difficult, their family creates trouble, their society, their culture, their friends. They become unnecessarily a problem, everywhere they feel embarrassed. No need anymore.

Vishrant
The sannyasins I’ve met in Australia are quite proud to represent you Bhagwan, they weren’t embarrassed.

I heard you say earlier this evening that you were going to put a six-hour-day on for sannyasins in the communes. Now, there seems to be a situation at Rajneeshpuram here in Oregon where you’ve got some roads to build and you’re going to have to work the twelve hours a day until that gets done.

In other centres around the world, which do follow exactly what the ranch does in their hours and everything, seeing as a lot of them won’t have the same problem, they won’t have the roads to build and that. Is it necessary for them to work the twelve hours a day?

Osho
No, just whatsoever is necessary. If they can manage six hours and there is no need to work more, that’s perfectly good. If they can manage in four hours, that’s even better. I am not…

But the question is, they should decide their economy because they should not become poor. There were few communes which were very poor, eating just bread and soup. If you don’t create, then naturally you will become poor. They were not having good clothes. Their houses were dilapidated. Old abandoned places they had taken and were living. This is not good.

So, if work is needed to be done, do it because you are doing for yourself. But if work is not needed and you are perfectly comfortable with six hours, then six hours is perfect. There is no need.

Just tell everybody that, you have to look to your need. There is no world standard that everybody has to work in this way. But one thing has to be remembered which is a world standard: that our sannyasins should not be poor, that our sannyasins should not look like paupers.

Our sannyasins should have good clothes, comfortable housing, heated rooms, air conditioning. Whatsoever modern technology makes available, our sannyasins should manage it. And work for it. Then six hours is perfect. The whole remaining time you meditate, you read, you discuss, you dance, you sing. And there are so many things in life to do, not just work.

But these people in three and half years had created an idea everywhere that work is the only thing. They were not interested in meditation because they never did themselves any meditation. They were not interested in any creativity. They were not creative people. They were not interested in music because they had never played. They were not interested in anything except work. Their interest was more and more money.

My interest is that you should be comfortable. That much money is enough.
You should not live for money, but you should be alert that enough money is always produced by the commune, so you don’t become poor.

Vishrant
Bhagwan, a question that I’d like to ask you is are there any enlightened Australian sannyasins?

Osho
There are few.

Vishrant
Could you name them for us?

Osho
No, that…

Vishrant
Are there any on the ranch here that are enlightened?

Osho
Yes, there are.

Vishrant
Would you be prepared to name any of them?

Osho
They will remain anonymous because it is dangerous. Others will start feeling jealous. Others will start feeling that, “They are superior and we are inferior.” And I don’t want to create any classes in sannyasins.

Somebody is enlightened, it is perfectly good. He should help others to be enlightened. But there is no need to declare your enlightenment. Let others feel that you are far advanced and help them to advance farther and farther towards the goal without declaring yourself.

So, I declare somebody is enlightened only when he is dead because with dead people it is good. Nobody feels jealous.

Vishrant
That’s true. Bhagwan, I’ve got only two questions left, I’m ahead of time, we’ve done really well. Have you got anything to say to your sannyasins that live in Australia?

Osho
Just tell them that whatsoever Sheela and her company has done there was not my work. For example, I have heard they have put all their children in one place. Neither the parents are happy, nor the children are happy. Remove those children back with their parents.

They have closed many centres. Open them. Open in new cities.

And because now sannyas becomes so simple and so available that you will be getting many more new faces, now we are absolutely in a position to take over the world. There is no problem.

So, tell them that all that Sheela and her company has done has nothing to do with me, so any litigation, any unnecessary troubles that they have created, get out of it. It is none of our business.

And you go back the way you were functioning. You were functioning perfectly well. This turmoil was of no use. It simply made sannyasins discriminated from other people, as enemies. It is not right.

So, create again bridges rather than walls. Make friendship. Tell them that we don’t have any religion so there is no question of any competition with Christianity or Catholicism or Judaism. We don’t have any competition because we are not a religion at all.

We are simply a way of living, a way of attaining consciousness, a way of religiousness, a way of spirituality. So, anybody can join us. And there is no conflict with anybody else.

So, make friendship and make it clear that Sheela’s group has been thrown out of the commune, and commune is being cleaned of all that they have done which was not right. And the same is being done in Europe, in Switzerland, in England. In England, Sheela did the same thing. She collected all the children of sannyasins from all the communes of Europe in England. So, the whole commune became of children and the sannyasins, four hundred sannyasins who were living in the communes, she forced them to move to European communes.

This is absolutely absurd. Parents are unhappy, children are unhappy. And the woman, Poonam, who has made the whole commune, she got so disgusted with these peoples she left the commune. She went out to live in London, opened her own bodywork shop.

Just last night I have informed her, “You take over the commune, send the children back to their parents, call all the sannyasins to the commune.” She was so immensely happy. She could not believe, she had tears. She started crying, I was informed, on the phone, that, “It was hurting so much, that I put my whole life in making that commune.”

And she had made a beautiful commune, and these people simply destroyed everything and took over. And the whole idea was how to get power over their money, over their finances.

This is absolutely ugly. We don’t want any commune’s finances. If they can manage themselves comfortably, we are absolutely happy.

So, just tell that to them.

Vishrant
I’ll be sending a copy of the video back, Bhagwan. Thank you very much.